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Megaman Discussion Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
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Heihachi_73 Offline
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Post: #1
Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
Has anyone ever been able to beat every Robot Master in the Wily Wars buster-only without getting hit? Not counting tool-assisted runs.

As everyone knows, Roahm Mythril managed to complete Wily Tower without taking any damage, but he never actually did the normal MM1/2/3 stages in his Wily Wars perfect run videos, and other videos are few and far between when it comes to Wily Wars perfect runs.

Easy bosses:

MM1:
Guts Man
(you can lure his Guts Blocks in this game)
Fire Man (different AI, no longer spams Fire Storm, cannot be locked into the stop and fire pattern but is still easy)
Bomb Man (different AI but is still easy)
Cut Man (takes 1 damage instead of 3 but is still Cut Man)
Yellow Devil (shutter does not close in boss room leaving a nice area to hide after the first pass; Fire Storm/Thunder Beam is needed in the stage however, due to a group of Fleas that always do long jumps above a ladder in a certain area, on the NES they used to be either long or short jumps so you could go down the ladder to reset the room if necessary)
Wily Machine 1 (not much has changed since the first game)

MM2:
Metal Man
(AI has a new 2-shot Metal Blade attack but is still easy, probably even easier if you walk up to him to make him jump across the room; the Moles in his stage can be annoying however, they seem to spawn faster or have more on screen)
Heat Man (his first shot of flames soar right over your head, all you have to do is walk forward at the start and shoot)
Crash Man (is still Crash Man)
Mecha Dragon (you need to be a bit more athletic with the three platforms, it's no longer a case of spamming the fire button at the top since you can't rapid-fire and rapid shots don't count anyway; watch out for one particular Pipi that drops an egg on the Wily platform in the first part of the stage)
Pico Pico Master (the Moles in this stage are just as annoying as Metal Man's)
I want to put Guts Tank here, but it has been a while since I played this one, it scrolls all the way on the screen before the fight so it might be slightly harder
Wily Machine 2 (yes, they fixed those annoying hitboxes of the bouncing shots!)
Alien (with Bubble Lead, of course)

MM3:
Top Man
(is Top Man)
Magnet Man (not much different, sometimes his Magnet Pull doesn't have invincibility like it should)
Snake Man (not much different)
Spark Man (seems easier than on the NES, sometimes gets stuck in a jumping pattern and bouncing off walls, similar to some enemies in Megaman 5)
Doc Robot (Heat Man) (as with Heat Man, he is also easier due to the first shot being easier to avoid, although he still only takes 1 damage)
Doc Robot (Crash Man) (Doc Crash is still easy)
Doc Robot (Metal Man) (as is Doc Metal)
Kamegoro Maker
Yellow Devil MK2 (as with MM1's version, the shutter on the left doesn't close, and as long as you are not sliding, the game moves much slower with all the blocks on the screen)
Gamma (Top Spin no longer hurts you on the way down, although you can still use Search Snakes)

Hard-to-impossible bosses:

MM1:
Elec Man
(runs and jumps all over the place like a spaz, crashing into you and spamming the Thunder Beam to no end, no Toad Man strategy in this game)
Megaman clone (has different AI and likes to randomly jump and crash into you; do I need to mention that Elec Man is also in this stage?)

MM2:
Quick Man
(AI is more random, only takes 1 damage instead of 2)
Flash Man (fires the Time Stopper much more frequently, only takes 1 damage instead of 2)
Wood Man (has Doc Wood's Leaf Shield and larger hitbox)
Air Man (I cannot defeat Air Man... well, at least if he does the impossible to dodge tornado pattern which he still has in this game)
Boobeam Trap (fires shots more frequently, usually hits you while you're still going up on the first Item-1 platform, and that Sniper Joe is still hiding in the low-ceiling area so charge up the Atomic Fire and torch him before you get shot)

MM3:
Hard Man
(cannot scroll off Hard Knuckles)
Shadow Man (AI is more random, cannot slide under Shadow Blades)
Needle Man (jumps around like a spaz and doesn't wait at the beginning either; Hari Haris (aka Needle Haris) are also a pain in this game as they can't be killed quickly)
Gemini Man (when he fires the Gemini Laser he doesn't stop like on the NES, leaving practically no room to dodge both him and the laser when he's following immediately behind it - bonus points for having an almost impossible to hit stage enemy near the start too, Bomber Pepe, who can't be rapid-fired in this game engine)
Doc Robot (Air Man) (still has that annoying tornado pattern)
Doc Robot (Flash Man) (all the same problems as WW Flash Man, but at least Doc Flash jumps every time you fire in this game)
Doc Robot (Quick Man) (ugh, just ugh!!!)
Doc Robot (Wood Man) (that Leaf Shield, need I say more?)

Of course, that mainly covers the bosses themselves, some of the stages will be an absolute nightmare without even getting to the boss given that rapid shots don't count against enemies (e.g. if two shots hit at almost the same time, only one shot will count, similar to Megaman 5), never mind the boss rush stages. After all, it isn't a perfect run of a stage if you're starting outside the boss room!

The bosses I left out are either YMMV territory or I didn't think they were much different e.g. Ice Man is still a slow and annoying battle but it's still timing-based; in fact, his stage is a bit easier as the Foot Holders don't have the collision bugs. Snake Man is also under the same category, although the room with the 4 Petit Snakeys can be a pain in this version, same with the lone Met near the start of the Boobeam stage, as it shoots at you while you're climbing up the ladder.
(This post was last modified: 27-06-2017 12:14 AM by Heihachi_73.)
27-06-2017 12:00 AM
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gone-sovereign Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
One thing I'd like to point out about Quick Man in Wily Wars: He actually moves slower in that game than he does in the original Mega Man 2, though I suppose that's to compensate for him taking only 1 damage point to buster shots instead of 2, as you mentioned. He's still a spaz either way.

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(This post was last modified: 27-06-2017 12:28 AM by gone-sovereign.)
27-06-2017 12:27 AM
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Heihachi_73 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
I have had Wily Wars Quick Man "run" from one side of the room to the other in the boss rush before (where the room has flat ground) without even jumping once! He really is a strange one in that game. Funnily enough, Elec Man still moves ridiculously fast and takes 1 damage so I wonder why they slowed down Quick Man... Sometimes Quick Man will jump more than the usual three times as well, as does Shadow Man. I don't know if that YouTube video of someone beating WW Quick Man is for real or a TAS. The Elec Man and Flash Man videos on YouTube were both failed attempts, with the player getting hit aka "no death run".

Doc Crash also walked straight into me while I was in the left corner, on the NES both Crash and Doc Crash normally leave a gap where they turn around and go back if you aren't touching the controller, I will have to play MM2 on Wily Wars again to see if Crash Man also does that. Doc Crash occasionally throws a Crash Bomb unprovoked as well, but that was also the case with the NES version, even the original Crash Man did it sometimes but it was uncommon.

I played Wily Wars (MM1 only) last night on the Mega Drive (I prefer using the real thing over an emulator when possible, especially when the games tend to lag a frame or two behind the actual gameplay due to the monitor output or upscaling or whatever else causes it), the only perfect run I ended up having was against Guts Man. For some reason, you can (barely) walk underneath Big Eye even if it does a low jump!

Big Eye got me on Cut Man's stage, it's a bit harder due to the Guts Blocks being on the left hand side, you don't know whether Big Eye is going to jump up to the next block or not, or whether the next jump will be a high or low jump when it is level with you. I didn't even attempt a buster-only run against Elec Man; even with the Rolling Cutter he managed to hit me twice (one was my own fault with a badly timed jump earning me a Thunder Beam to the face, the other was Elec Man jumping up to the Guts Blocks where I was and then jumping again right on top of me). After that I gave up with buster-only and just use RM weapons throughout the game when needed, aiming just for no damage where possible (Elec Man got me again with the Thunder Beam in the Wily 2 rematch).
27-06-2017 04:15 AM
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Science Muffin Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
"THEORETICALLY", all of these bosses should be possible, because none of them are guaranteed to pull off an attack that forces you to take damage, but then again, "THEORETICALLY", Wily Machine 2 would be possible, but that would take a gargantuan amount of luck. So the problem is really how we define "impossible", or how should we define it. The main definition is "not able to occur, exist, or be done." This definition doesn't make sense in this use of the word, considering, with an enormous amount of luck, Wily Machine 2 can be done buster-only without getting hit. So, if that definition doesn't work, what about "very difficult to deal with"? This statement, however, is purely objective, and can be applied to nearly everything, e.g. "Mega Man 2 is impossible". I find impossible to be an improper word in this sense. I think that extremely unreasonable, i.e. "beyond the limits of acceptability or fairness to a very great degree", fits the bill better.

That's just My opinion though. I'll go attempt to perfect run WW now.

EDIT 1: I have some interesting findings, and I'd like people to test it out for themselves, because I don't know if I'm just seeing patterns were there are none.

Indeed, Flash Man does spam time stopper in WW, but I think it has to do with how much he walks. In a run, the first time, Flash Man used time stopper about 10 times, but in the second one he only used it once. The difference was that in the second one I never stopped firing, so he jumped every time he touched the ground (other than the part were I got hit, and he walked for a bit and used it). I don't know if this will work with other people, but if it does, I think it's a valid revenge strategy. I want as many people to test this out as I can, so if you have a copy, please test this hypothesis out. Thanks in advance.

EDIT 2: Muffin plays, Muffin finds. So, in my playthrough I'm doing currently, I'll give my take on the bosses.

Elec Man: I have nothing to say. Impossible? No. Beyond my skill level? YES.
Copy Robot: Copy Robot himself is just a reflex battle, so I wouldn't deem it extremely difficult, but Elec Man? Yea...
Quick Man: Not as hard as Elec Man IMO (I know, right), and I think I might be able to do it?
Flash Man: See EDIT 1.
Wood Man: Maybe slightly harder, but not marginally (until the epic dodge maneuver, maybe)
Air Man: Sure the original is hard, and so is this one (he used it near-undodgeable pattern THRICE IN A ROW on my playthrough), but something about the physics makes me think it's slightly easier? May be he blows a lot later (I don't know if there is a way to make that sentence not sound wrong).
Boobeam Trap: Maybe he's slightly harder? IDK.
Gemini Man, Shadow Man, Hard Man: I'm leaving these out because I used there weaknesses on accident... Hard Man doesn't strike me as particularly difficult, but that is probably just Magnet Missile talking.
Needle Man: He is MUCH easier in my opinion. The stage is still troublesome, but I think even I could do it within a few tries. The main reason for this is that he's slower and the head ramming attack seems much more fair and consistent.

Okay, now time for Doc Robot...

EDIT 3: Doc Robots in WW? more like same exact boss except larger hitbox.

In conclusion, I think that none of these should be deemed "impossible" (or, as I stated, "extremely unreasonable") except (maybe) Boobeam Trap. all the others seem very possible, but this one seems, at least, extremely difficult. I don't know if it is, I'm no durgon myself, but I'll just leave it there for now.

Thanks for reading my extensively long post with 3 edits.

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(This post was last modified: 29-06-2017 12:21 AM by Science Muffin.)
27-06-2017 08:56 PM
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Heihachi_73 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
The other difference between the NES and Wily Wars versions is that bosses have longer periods of invincibility e.g. I can usually get 5 shots in against Top Man on every pass, but on WW I can only get 3. I have to also say, my opinions are from playing the game on a PAL Mega Drive II VA0 console (e.g. 50Hz), so at NTSC speeds it might make things slightly harder again (or easier, who knows).

Wily Machine 2 is extremely easy in Wily Wars, as it doesn't have the hitbox bug. The hardest part of that stage is the boss rush by far.

Air Man is a bit slower between attacks, notably his first attack (and after he jumps to the other side), you can even hit him with the Leaf Shield before he fires off the first lot of tornadoes. He also has a new pattern where he leaves himself completely open and the tornadoes go right over your head.

Flash Man and Doc Flash both jump the instant you fire (similar to Gemini Man when there's only one of him left), which is different from their original AI where Flash Man only jumped when hit and Doc Flash only jumped when going to a higher platform. I had one of them get stuck walking into a wall in WW once, I can't remember which one it was.

I found a trick to make Wood Man and Doc Wood easier, just spam buster shots to make the game slow down, it makes jumping over the Leaf Shield much easier since you can time it better. I have never tried the epic dodge maneuver though, usually I just use the weaknesses on both bosses.
(This post was last modified: 29-06-2017 12:52 AM by Heihachi_73.)
29-06-2017 12:48 AM
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Post: #6
RE: Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
Isn't MM2 impossible to do buster only? Since Boobeam Trap requires the crash bombs and Alien Wily requires Bubble Lead?
29-06-2017 01:32 AM
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Heihachi_73 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
Just about every Megaman game is impossible to do buster-only, you always have to bend the rules when there is no alternative when certain bosses are immune to buster shots. Only MM1 and Wily Tower can be completed buster-only, and not even that if item use (e.g. switching from the buster to Magnet Beam etc.) is also banned. As Roahm said after his initial Elec Man perfect run, you'd only get past the 3 Big Eyes in Wily 1 and then get stuck as you have to use the Super Arm or Thunder Beam to get inside the building, never mind the forced use of the Magnet Beam later on. Megaman 2 also forces you to use Items 1 and 2 (Item-3 is optional) through the Wily stages. The Boobeam stage also requires you to torch a Returning Sniper Joe since you can't kill it before it hits you, and taking no damage takes precedence over using only the buster in a perfect run. Megaman 3 has a lot of forced Rush Coil and Jet usage.
29-06-2017 01:48 AM
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gone-sovereign Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
(29-06-2017 01:48 AM)Heihachi_73 Wrote:  Just about every Megaman game is impossible to do buster-only, you always have to bend the rules when there is no alternative when certain bosses are immune to buster shots. Only MM1 and Wily Tower can be completed buster-only, and not even that if item use (e.g. switching from the buster to Magnet Beam etc.) is also banned. As Roahm said after his initial Elec Man perfect run, you'd only get past the 3 Big Eyes in Wily 1 and then get stuck as you have to use the Super Arm or Thunder Beam to get inside the building, never mind the forced use of the Magnet Beam later on. Megaman 2 also forces you to use Items 1 and 2 (Item-3 is optional) through the Wily stages. The Boobeam stage also requires you to torch a Returning Sniper Joe since you can't kill it before it hits you, and taking no damage takes precedence over using only the buster in a perfect run. Megaman 3 has a lot of forced Rush Coil and Jet usage.

The Genesis Unit and Wily Tower can be completed buster-only, at least.

I know you're strictly referring to the games on Wily Wars, but it's possible to complete Mega Man 10 buster-only too. If you open up the criteria to utilities as well as the buster, I think that would include 5, 6, and 7. I'm sure it's possible to buster-only some of the Gameboy games, but I haven't played too many of them to be able to tell you.

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(This post was last modified: 29-06-2017 10:47 PM by gone-sovereign.)
29-06-2017 03:57 PM
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Heihachi_73 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
Yeah, with Magnet Beam and Rush items/adapters (I still count this as buster only since even with Rush out you can only fire buster shots, with the exception of Power Megaman), 1, 5, 6 and 7 are possible, although I believe the latter requires charged shots against Wily. But since they never did a Wily Wars 2 with 4, 5 and 6 or a Sega version of Megaman 7 it's probably beyond the scope of this topic.
30-06-2017 08:59 AM
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Heihachi_73 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Are some Wily Wars buster-only perfect runs impossible?
Tried MM3 last night on the Mega Drive, all I can say is screw Shadow Man, Hard Man, Gemini Man, Needle Man, Doc Wood, Doc Flash and Doc Quick. Once again it's the same bosses that got me. Funnily enough, I actually got hit by Top Man in the boss rush, I jumped too early and landed on top of him!

I found Needle Man easier in WW (still didn't get a perfect though), but he can sometimes jump a stupid amount of times in a row (as with Shadow, Quick and Elec too) and quickly corner you, only to do a little hop and spam needles right in your face. If only I could get him to keep using the thing on his head at close range he would be much easier. Needle Man also doesn't wait for you to do the first attack, he can jump straight over to you right at the start.

Spark Man's stage is a bit harder near the start with the Electric Gabyoalls as you can't simply run and jump over them like on the NES (you can still scroll them off the screen however), but with timing it is doable, and the rest of the stage is slightly easier since you can make the nuts and bolts near the end spawn quicker so they don't get in the way while jumping.

One day I might hook up a video capture card and record a few runs, while showing off the weird yellow graphical artifacts the VA0 PAL Mega Drive II has in the process.
17-07-2017 12:45 AM
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