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Mega Man 2.5D
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notencore Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
Sorry if I came off a slight facetious, Alchemist. I was being legitimate in this sense - I would legitimately suggest supporting RKS than recommending 2.5d (in its current state).

I think the (in its current state) is the operating qualifier here - the game can be fixed, though I'm not sure what the dev has planned for post-launch support. They've put out a day 1 patch, which suggests good faith, but they also seem to be quickly moving towards their new project; leaving this one in the dust.

If this game does get post-launch support, I honestly think it can shine - but it's current state is closer to a demo - ironic, slightly.

While I have nothing but praise for the graphics, the game is lacking in substance, which makes it fall off the rader rather quickly (in my opinion.)

I do have praise for its two player system - if anything, it serves as a great base point for other games to iterate on, it's just a shame that there's no plan for netcode any time soon - if I want to play Megaman online with a friend, I would have to go play 20XX, an excellent example of Roguelike Megaman, but not.

This game is in a weird spot. If I want to play official Megaman, I'd play an official game. If I'd want to play a fangame with substance, I'd play a different fangame instead. Again, graphics are this game's strong suit, but it could very easily have had gameplay to match that; I think that's where most of my disappointment comes from - we could have had a real diamond in the rough here, but instead it's glitchy, slow, and kind of meh, at best.

Middling is the word I'd use to describe it.

And I want to like this game, I remember seeing the trailer as a *kid* and getting excited. It's a very exciting concept, and the devs put work into the game, even if the end result isn't the best it could be, it's still obvious that heart went into this game, and I respect that.

My problem is I'm not sure how much heart went into this game - the devs seem to be quickly transitioning momentum into a kickstarter, which makes me question their motives somewhat.

I'm still holding out hope for post-launch support. Not a lot of hope, but hope.
09-02-2017 07:53 AM
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DDRKhat Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
(09-02-2017 07:53 AM)notencore Wrote:  Sorry if I came off a slight facetious, Alchemist. I was being legitimate in this sense - I would legitimately suggest supporting RKS than recommending 2.5d (in its current state).

I think the (in its current state) is the operating qualifier here - the game can be fixed, though I'm not sure what the dev has planned for post-launch support. They've put out a day 1 patch, which suggests good faith, but they also seem to be quickly moving towards their new project; leaving this one in the dust.

If this game does get post-launch support, I honestly think it can shine - but it's current state is closer to a demo - ironic, slightly.

While I have nothing but praise for the graphics, the game is lacking in substance, which makes it fall off the rader rather quickly (in my opinion.)

I do have praise for its two player system - if anything, it serves as a great base point for other games to iterate on, it's just a shame that there's no plan for netcode any time soon - if I want to play Megaman online with a friend, I would have to go play 20XX, an excellent example of Roguelike Megaman, but not.

This game is in a weird spot. If I want to play official Megaman, I'd play an official game. If I'd want to play a fangame with substance, I'd play a different fangame instead. Again, graphics are this game's strong suit, but it could very easily have had gameplay to match that; I think that's where most of my disappointment comes from - we could have had a real diamond in the rough here, but instead it's glitchy, slow, and kind of meh, at best.

Middling is the word I'd use to describe it.

And I want to like this game, I remember seeing the trailer as a *kid* and getting excited. It's a very exciting concept, and the devs put work into the game, even if the end result isn't the best it could be, it's still obvious that heart went into this game, and I respect that.

My problem is I'm not sure how much heart went into this game - the devs seem to be quickly transitioning momentum into a kickstarter, which makes me question their motives somewhat.

I'm still holding out hope for post-launch support. Not a lot of hope, but hope.

Hey there. We are certainly NOT pushing our first "baby" (per say) to the sideline just to rush towards our next project; I at the very least do not wanna be the type of developer that just builds something and throws it away losing interest immediately so at the very least I will still be supporting this as best as I can as a programmer post-launch and hope to reassure you that the rest of the team do also given that there have been public comments that we at least plan to go to v1.1 (not that versioning reassures anything, but we typically go for Large.Medium.Small increments, so a v1.1 should hold at least some new gameplay content).

As you seemed to show interest in a previous post, I would be more than willing to take any and all feedback you have (although I do politely request it's put across as constructive as possible, but I am prepared for anger comments) so that we can further tweak, refine and make this as tight a fan game as possible.
(This post was last modified: 09-02-2017 08:21 AM by DDRKhat.)
09-02-2017 08:15 AM
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TheFallenAlchemist Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
NP, Notencore.

As for the developer, these are the only real issues I faced as of now, but again that was the 1.0 version and things may have been fixed that I had an issue with. As of right now, my throttled data will not allow me to download another copy of the game until at least late February, but I will do that and let you know if there is anything else I've found an issue with.

As for my background, I've been playing these sorts of games since I was a child, discovering the fan game movement around 99. Fan Games were very crude back then, but I can't even tell you how many games and mostly unfinished demos I've played featuring the Blue Bomber. I can honestly say that something of this caliber would not have been possible by fans those sixteen years ago when I was trying to make my own titles and unfortunately failing miserably. I realized that I was good at writing stories, but not so good at the whole programming aspect. I finished a game, but it was buried beneath the heaps of skulls that make up Skull Man's stage, and I hope that no one on the internet should ever uncover it. Smile

In any case, I will definitely give it another spin. I was determined to finish this one, so I definitely will. Hopefully the old save states will be compatible with new versions.

Though not quite related, I recommend that you view the sticky thread where we discussed some things that went wrong in other fan games, and why we felt they were not utilized correctly. Some of the commentary there might in-directly prove useful to your game. It's worth a look, at least. There's also a sister thread where we discuss what we did like about certain fan games. I'd recommend just glancing over them a bit.

Yeah, I review stuff: http://thegrimtower.com
10-02-2017 10:17 AM
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Kallisto Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
I just got to say Flashman, I think I can finally say you're one of the very few people out there that actually understands gaming, and how to review a game. You really put many Expert & Amateur Game Critics that appear on MetaCritic to shame since more often than not it is usually a shitfest...you're definitely a rarity.

It is refreshing.
(This post was last modified: 11-02-2017 02:20 AM by Kallisto.)
10-02-2017 11:50 AM
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Flashman85 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
(10-02-2017 11:50 AM)Kallisto Wrote:  I just got to say Flashman, I think I can finally say you're one of the very few people out that there that actually understands gaming, and how to review a game.

Thank you, Kallisto—I really appreciate you saying so.


I'm planning on livestreaming 2.5D in the near future, if not a full playthrough then at least a hefty demonstration. I'll save most of my commentary for the stream, but in the meantime, I wanted to suggest some changes that would have improved my first experience playing through the game in full (v1.0.1 on Hard Mode before unlocking any extras):

- Add more checkpoints. Off the top of my head, Tornado Man really needs a checkpoint between the end of the elevator section and the start of the raining section with the line-guided rotating platforms. Splash Woman could also use an extra checkpoint between the end of the last bubble section and the start of the section with the bathtub platforms flying out of the walls. Star Man should have a checkpoint right at the jet bike, and the earlier checkpoint should be moved back to the bottom of the vertical section with the high/low gravity.

The rule of thumb I follow is to have a checkpoint every 6-12 screens—the more instant death everywhere, the more frequent the checkpoints—and a checkpoint at the start of any area that focuses on a different gimmick than the last section. Currently, there isn't always a logical challenge arc from one checkpoint to the next in 2.5D; I often feel like I'm restarting at the tail end of one challenge, or going through a few screens of filler until I can get back to the part that's at all likely to hurt or kill me.

- Make Easy Mode even easier. I've dabbled in all three of the difficulty modes, and I honestly couldn't tell you the difference between them, aside from one or two screens. Mega Man 10 is a good template—power-ups are bigger and more frequent; many bottomless pits are filled in with floating platforms. I'm not sure if the bosses in 2.5D receive more damage or deal less damage on Easy Mode, but that would be beneficial as well. In my mind, Easy Mode should do everything in its power to make players of any skill level succeed, to the point where a seasoned Mega Man player could conquer the whole game with just one or two lives. Currently, Easy Mode is just "Not Technically Hard Mode." Making more drastic changes between difficulties would also increase the replay value.

- Change Quick Boomerang so that it either fires more rapidly, or doesn't get absorbed by an enemy it's powerful enough to destroy (similar to how a charge shot tears through weak enemies and keeps going, which is how Quick Boomerang functions in MM2). I was shocked to find that Quick Boomerang is virtually useless against Pipi swarms.

- On that subject, it would be nice if the Pipi swarms dropped power-ups. It adds insult to literal injury that there's no reward for defeating an enemy that can be so hard to deal with.

- I'd like to see Rush become available after defeating 6 or 7 of the Robot Masters, rather than saving him for the Wily stages. It would be a huge benefit to struggling players if they could save the hardest for last and get some assistance on platforming challenges they just can't clear.

- Although unlikely, it's technically possible to get stuck at the beginning of the first Wily stage if you run out of Rush energy: the very first screen where you need to use Coil, and the screen with the spike floor where you need to use Jet, don't have any enemies you can destroy for power-ups, and there isn't even a way to backtrack to an area with enemies if you're out of Rush energy once you get there.

- In the Mecha Dragon fight, prevent the Mecha Dragon's tail from swooping too low when he crosses the screen. Maybe this was just because I was playing on Hard Mode, but his tail knocked me off the ladder several times. Climbing down the ladder for safety is a reasonable challenge, and climbing a little lower to avoid the tip of his tail is fine, but I had to climb so far down that I almost fell off the screen in order to avoid getting hit, and that seems like a bit much.

- The Energy Balancer would be a welcome addition, either as an unlockable or as an always-available option on the menu screen.

- If you close the weapon menu and immediately try to slide while the menu is still closing, the game interprets "down + jump" as "switch to the next weapon down." I would prefer for that not to happen, as it messed me up more than once in a tight situation.


I want to emphasize that I did enjoy playing through the game, but it was an unevenly enjoyable experience. I'm grateful the team is accepting feedback; I'm excited to see where 2.5D will go from here.

No matter where you go, there you are.
10-02-2017 05:08 PM
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[snupster] Nico Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
Hello people (and hey Gemini, you might know me from Snupster!),

I started an evaluation series of this game as I found a lot of problems with it. You can hop on over and comment on stuff I might have missed, and even ask me about the things I found. You can see it here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...wqTyx0PGK9

One episode to come.

- Nico, Snupster
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2017 10:29 PM by [snupster] Nico.)
10-02-2017 06:43 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
(10-02-2017 05:08 PM)Flashman85 Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 11:50 AM)Kallisto Wrote:  I just got to say Flashman, I think I can finally say you're one of the very few people out that there that actually understands gaming, and how to review a game.

Thank you, Kallisto—I really appreciate you saying so.


I'm planning on livestreaming 2.5D in the near future, if not a full playthrough then at least a hefty demonstration. I'll save most of my commentary for the stream, but in the meantime, I wanted to suggest some changes that would have improved my first experience playing through the game in full (v1.0.1 on Hard Mode before unlocking any extras):

- Add more checkpoints. Off the top of my head, Tornado Man really needs a checkpoint between the end of the elevator section and the start of the raining section with the line-guided rotating platforms. Splash Woman could also use an extra checkpoint between the end of the last bubble section and the start of the section with the bathtub platforms flying out of the walls. Star Man should have a checkpoint right at the jet bike, and the earlier checkpoint should be moved back to the bottom of the vertical section with the high/low gravity.

The rule of thumb I follow is to have a checkpoint every 6-12 screens—the more instant death everywhere, the more frequent the checkpoints—and a checkpoint at the start of any area that focuses on a different gimmick than the last section. Currently, there isn't always a logical challenge arc from one checkpoint to the next in 2.5D; I often feel like I'm restarting at the tail end of one challenge, or going through a few screens of filler until I can get back to the part that's at all likely to hurt or kill me.

- Make Easy Mode even easier. I've dabbled in all three of the difficulty modes, and I honestly couldn't tell you the difference between them, aside from one or two screens. Mega Man 10 is a good template—power-ups are bigger and more frequent; many bottomless pits are filled in with floating platforms. I'm not sure if the bosses in 2.5D receive more damage or deal less damage on Easy Mode, but that would be beneficial as well. In my mind, Easy Mode should do everything in its power to make players of any skill level succeed, to the point where a seasoned Mega Man player could conquer the whole game with just one or two lives. Currently, Easy Mode is just "Not Technically Hard Mode." Making more drastic changes between difficulties would also increase the replay value.

- Change Quick Boomerang so that it either fires more rapidly, or doesn't get absorbed by an enemy it's powerful enough to destroy (similar to how a charge shot tears through weak enemies and keeps going, which is how Quick Boomerang functions in MM2). I was shocked to find that Quick Boomerang is virtually useless against Pipi swarms.

- On that subject, it would be nice if the Pipi swarms dropped power-ups. It adds insult to literal injury that there's no reward for defeating an enemy that can be so hard to deal with.

- I'd like to see Rush become available after defeating 6 or 7 of the Robot Masters, rather than saving him for the Wily stages. It would be a huge benefit to struggling players if they could save the hardest for last and get some assistance on platforming challenges they just can't clear.

- Although unlikely, it's technically possible to get stuck at the beginning of the first Wily stage if you run out of Rush energy: the very first screen where you need to use Coil, and the screen with the spike floor where you need to use Jet, don't have any enemies you can destroy for power-ups, and there isn't even a way to backtrack to an area with enemies if you're out of Rush energy once you get there.

- In the Mecha Dragon fight, prevent the Mecha Dragon's tail from swooping too low when he crosses the screen. Maybe this was just because I was playing on Hard Mode, but his tail knocked me off the ladder several times. Climbing down the ladder for safety is a reasonable challenge, and climbing a little lower to avoid the tip of his tail is fine, but I had to climb so far down that I almost fell off the screen in order to avoid getting hit, and that seems like a bit much.

- The Energy Balancer would be a welcome addition, either as an unlockable or as an always-available option on the menu screen.

- If you close the weapon menu and immediately try to slide while the menu is still closing, the game interprets "down + jump" as "switch to the next weapon down." I would prefer for that not to happen, as it messed me up more than once in a tight situation.


I want to emphasize that I did enjoy playing through the game, but it was an unevenly enjoyable experience. I'm grateful the team is accepting feedback; I'm excited to see where 2.5D will go from here.

I was going to mention more checkpoints, especially during that rain section in Tornado Man's stage (very, very inconvenient) but I didn't think they would be added, so I decided not to. Everything else I agree with, sans the Wily stages. I've not reached those yet so can't comment.

I will say that I would like Rush options available after 2-4 robot masters, like the original games. I clearly remember getting rush parts fairly quickly and they were very useful during trying parts of the stages. As another example, RKS does just that; having given me a platform ride part after having beaten the second boss. For me, after six or seven bosses, it seems like kind of an afterthought. Maybe on the hard mode it could be 6-7, but 2-4 fits us normies a bit better. Regardless of how much Mega Man I've played, I was never all that good at it, save for the X series. Let's keep casual players in mind.

Going back to this, if maybe it would be better to put a 2-4 in the easy mode and what Flashman declared in the normal/hard mode, that would be fine. Another qualm I have is with 9 lives in easy mode. Does one really need that many if the stage is so difficult at times to begin with? To me, that is nine times being killed at the same section. This is just a minor gripe admittedly, and it's not a real necessary change to make. It is your game, after all.

Yeah, I review stuff: http://thegrimtower.com
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2017 04:55 AM by TheFallenAlchemist.)
10-02-2017 11:14 PM
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Joseph Collins Away
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Post: #28
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
I'll just leave this here.

I'm not that hard to find... if you know where to look.
... but you'd be a fool to think me here.
11-02-2017 10:44 AM
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DDRKhat Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
(11-02-2017 10:44 AM)Joseph Collins Wrote:  I'll just leave this here.

Again I am aware of that document, Joseph. I spoke with you on discord in relation to that document. I feel it is a bit insultive to bring it up again.
16-02-2017 04:02 AM
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Blyka Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
(16-02-2017 04:02 AM)DDRKhat Wrote:  Again I am aware of that document, Joseph. I spoke with you on discord in relation to that document. I feel it is a bit insultive to bring it up again.

Hm, well, odd choice of words, but if you are indeed interested in "the nitty gritty about what feels off/incorrect", that document looks to be a gold mine from what I've skimmed and definitely worth considering if you aren't already.
Some things might be brushed off as a level of detail you're not interested in (like that Dr. Wily's R should always be lowercase) and in many cases perhaps you intentionally broke the behavior of Capcom games so there's nothing to address. But from the time I spent with the game I felt its weakest links were engine stability and polish, so I'm guessing it would greatly benefit from at least some of what's covered in that document.

Over the years I've come to feel that engine solidity and accuracy is among the most important considerations in a fan game for two reasons: One, it allows the player's practiced skill and knowledge from all the official Mega Man titles to carry over to whatever challenges your fan game presents, and two, there's nothing that frustrates me more than taking damage or dying because the engine betrayed me in some way. The second is a bit like invisible spikes; essentially, the game just kills you without warning through no fault of your own.

I'm not quite sure what all was off about 2.5D's engine, but I found myself dying from bugs and stiffness enough that I quickly came to not trust it. Lack of trust in the engine can make even simple tasks like clearing a pit or leaping to a ladder scary at worst, a chore at best. So personally, I'd think any engine complaint that's been given is definitely a priority consideration for crafting a smoother experience.

That said, it's still more playable than many fan games out there, so good effort. I was also playing v1.0 and I gather something about the sliding was fixed, so I'm sure that helped as well.

My sentiment towards accuracy also applies to familiar enemy behavior; for example, when I see a standard Pickelman Bull I naturally assume he'll behave a certain way, so it comes as an unpleasant surprise when he rides off his platform to where I thought I was safe.
Right or wrong there is subjective though, as perhaps you WANT to surprise players with new behavior.

A couple of concrete level issues that stuck with me:

-- When riding the Big Snakey, I could stand at what appeared to be a very safe distance from his head when he changed directions and I'd still get whacked by an invisible hitbox. That entire segment spawned many "Seriously?!" moments.
-- In Splash Woman's stage, during a segment just after a checkpoint where you're precision-jumping upwards around spikes: Spikes that should have (by usual MM standards) been flush with the wall above them and, as a result, unable to hit you when you're just sliding down the wall, killed me several times.

As to the perceived lack of polish, well, some choices I just found odd (like having artwork mixed into the boss energy bar amidst a seemingly 100% 8bit level). Other things I felt were more off in the technical sense, like the camera oftentimes feeling floaty (or strange, like in Co-Op when one player fell down the first climb in Tornado's level and the camera zoomed waaaaaay out). And other things like not showing the character on the Get Weapon screen, which I don't think has ever been a thing in official games.

Much of what I'd probably consider unpolished may have been addressed elsewhere, but again, what degree of polish and what manner of presentation you want to give is entirely a personal choice.
As is every aspect of the game, really.

Anyway, these are of course just some of my personal observations on 2.5D, so take or leave them as you like. :)

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16-02-2017 07:27 PM
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Kallisto Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
Blyka, I think he only meant Joseph's words made him seem like he was being snide at him, but I don't think Joseph meant his post to be taken that way. Usually "I'll just leave this here" is usually internet speak for bringing down someone or some kind of comedic effect, I think it was just a poor choice of words to use that I think he meant no harm by.
(This post was last modified: 17-02-2017 03:56 PM by Kallisto.)
17-02-2017 03:49 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
Well, to feel that JC posting his report again* is "insultive"--and with no mention on if any of the issues are planned to be addressed--made me wonder if perhaps the thoroughness of the report was taken the wrong way, as opposed to gleaning some of the very useful feedback therein. The report is quite a mountain, so I just thought I'd direct attention to what I felt to be particularly useful categories to consider while also providing some impressions of my own that may be of use if they're still trying to improve the game.

* Even if it was already discussed privately, it seems a good reference for the community to have on hand anyway so these issues don't get reported twice.

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17-02-2017 04:27 PM
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DDRKhat Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
(16-02-2017 07:27 PM)Blyka Wrote:  (Awa! Such-a-text! much post!)
Thank you for this feedback. I am sorry it seems I did not explain myself too well.

The information provided in the document is certainly being looked at and acknowledged; Some of it helpful, some of it not. I do not feel it is fair to bring up the private conversation in public (as things said in private are typically done so in confidence. Although if they really wish to bring it to the public I am personally not concerned by their decision to do so).

I apologise you felt that game engine was off and it is something we are hoping to continue to improve going forwards, you are right to expect a certain level of accuracy and it would be naive to expect players to just accept it if it didn't get the majority of the game engine down.

In regards to the spike segment with Splash Woman if you could provide a screenshot of the area I could take an extra thorough check of the area, Johan of the team had gone through checking spikes and making their hitboxes more generous (smaller than visual) but some possibly got missed (there's lots of area to check if you consider single and co-op).

In regards to the art on the healthbar, I think it was done as a flavour thing to try and make it more apparent at a brief glance as to which boss you are fighting, rather than trying to read the bosses name (It would take quite a lot of backlogged text to find the reason Peter mentioned).

BigSnakey hitbox woes may be due to the sudden-ness of his turning (I'm assuming we are on about co-op here?) although last I checked with our debugging tools the hitbox for it was a tiny bit smaller than the visual, I will check into this.


I apologise again if my post seems negative, Kallisto is correct about how I felt on the situation, it seemed like a snide remark as if trying to palm off that we had acknowledged his issues with the game (especially as it was me that went out of my way to personally get in contact with him).
18-02-2017 04:45 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
Well, since he brought it up... let me go ahead and say that our "conversation" was basically a rapid-fire Q&A session... and of the dozen or so things that Khat chose to ask me about from my document, about 0% of them seemed like they were going to be addressed. It's also worth mentioning that the things he asked me about weren't even all that important in the grand scheme of things. Every single thing he asked about was from the "Vs. Capcom Games" section... aside from mentioning that Sniper Joe's defenses could be bypassed by specific weapons, anyway. Still, he really didn't seem to "acknowledge" anything from beyond that section, nor give me any sort of reassurance that I wasn't just wasting my time... which is fairly upsetting since I was only trying to help.

So, what specific things did Khat ask me about? Well, he asked about the commercial game mechanics of the following: Sniper Armor and Sniper Joe, Time Slow, Rush Jet, Springer, Taketendo, Picketman Bull, Shadow Blade, Pharaoh Wave, and I think one or two more things I can't rightly recall.
Yes, I felt they should be mentioned because, like Blyka, I am a stickler for accurate physics in Mega Man fan games. I mean, if you're going to go to the trouble of replicating something wholesale, you should at least try and do so as accurately as possible. Not only is the expectation there from the dedicated players (I can think of at least five people who said the engine "felt off"), but as Blyka put it: "[Accurate replication of a game engine] allows the player's practiced skill and knowledge from all the official Mega Man titles to carry over to whatever challenges your fan game presents." He also mentioned something about having faith in the engine which, thinking back, I do seem to remember just giving up and "accepting my fate" whenever the engine decided to punish me for trying to play the game like I would any other... but never mind.

Going back to the "Vs. Capcom" stuff... the funniest thing about this is that even after I showed Khat first-hand what, exactly, I had meant by some of those points... he always seemed to have a dismissive answer such a, "I didn't program that," or "I/we didn't know that." Another good one was "it's fine as it is." Then why bring it up in the first place? Just to reassure me it won't be looked in to? My favorite response though? "We can't accurately replicate the behavior of a game engine without having a de-compile/the source code of that game," citing that the only one in existence right now is for Mega Man.
Have... the 2.5D people never played Super Fighting Robot? Or Mega Man Unlimited? Or, ya know... Mega Man Endless? I feel the last one is of particular mention because Blyka and I took replicating the game physics to a whole new level for that project... and we even finally discovered why the jumping felt off in his games. Turns out he hadn't had the jumping frame collision box properly aligned... which made it appear as though Megaman (or SuperDanny) were jumping three pixels higher than normal... but also made it so their head brushed against the ceiling sooner than expected. It's also worth mentioning that Blyka replicated every single enemy's behavior down to the most insignificant of details (ie, the Sniper Armor thing, Shotmen randomizing their angles, etc.) entirely by himself (I think?) and as early as SuperDanny 2. But I digress.

I feel that the definition of "helpful feedback" seems a little questionable in its subjectivity... particularly since the definition of "acknowledgement" seems to learn more toward "yes, we noticed you said words" as opposed to "yes, we have read the report in full and intend to look into things for ourselves."
Now, to be fair... I'll admit that v1.0.1 fixed a couple of very trivial things that I mentioned (some sprite errors -- particularly concerning Octone's ink) as well as one of the more commonly-mentioned bugs (the slide bug), but considering how much has been left untouched and especially given the dismissive (and sometimes seemingly snarky) attitude of Khat toward feedback -- and not just mine, mind you... I don't see much hope for the project improving by v1.0.2, much less v1.1.0.

I think a quote from earlier in the thread can summarize how I feel about this project and Khat in particular:
(07-02-2017 07:40 PM)Flashman85 Wrote:  It's entirely possible that the developers deliberately ignored valid criticism […]
But I will say, I'd be happy to be proven wrong on that front.

I'm not that hard to find... if you know where to look.
... but you'd be a fool to think me here.
18-02-2017 08:57 AM
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Blyka Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
(18-02-2017 04:45 AM)DDRKhat Wrote:  In regards to the spike segment with Splash Woman if you could provide a screenshot of the area I could take an extra thorough check of the area,

Hm, I tried taking a screen cap of the spot in question, but when I closed the game out and went to paste/save the image it was blank white, so... XP
The area was on co-op mode in the bubble rising section, with an E-Tank to the top left and a room of drain-timed exploding platforms to the right. I believe the spikes were the second to last tricky jump.

Incidentally... I wasn't able to replicate the issue this time. Both of us playing the co-op mode suffered death there last time though, and I know it wasn't a simple input mistake because I was actually pressing left to get away from the spikes and got killed anyway. As I know nothing of the engine I can't imagine what would cause that to be an intermittent bug, but... definitely strange.

(18-02-2017 04:45 AM)DDRKhat Wrote:  BigSnakey hitbox woes may be due to the sudden-ness of his turning (I'm assuming we are on about co-op here?)

Yeah, co-op it was.

(18-02-2017 04:45 AM)DDRKhat Wrote:  I apologise you felt that game engine was off and it is something we are hoping to continue to improve going forwards,

Oh, no apology necessary. As I said the engine is a good effort, and I think it's safe to say I'm probably exceptionally critical towards that sort of thing hence it was my main point of feedback. All the same it's good to hear you hope to improve it. :)

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19-02-2017 05:16 AM
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TheFallenAlchemist Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
I will take some level of the blame for linking him to this forum, because I knew that both Joseph Collins and Blyka would give very accurate critiques on the product, and should have both been employed at Capcom years ago, IMO. I did not however, expect a war of words and hope that a calm and intelligent discourse can only help to improve the game.

Yeah, I review stuff: http://thegrimtower.com
19-02-2017 11:09 PM
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DDRKhat Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
(19-02-2017 11:09 PM)TheFallenAlchemist Wrote:  I will take some level of the blame for linking him to this forum, because I knew that both Joseph Collins and Blyka would give very accurate critiques on the product, and should have both been employed at Capcom years ago, IMO. I did not however, expect a war of words and hope that a calm and intelligent discourse can only help to improve the game.
Please do not feel like there is blame to give here. I am happy to acknowledge the feedback here, including Joseph's. Everything you guys write and say is taken into consideration although if you will believe me on this fact is entirely beyond my control.

Also be aware there is only so much that can be done to improve things, and additionally that versions 1.0.1 and 1.0.2 are being worked on to push out fixes towards huge vital crashes, whilst allowing us time to better focus on further improving the more intricate inaccuracies of the game.

We are an fan team that are working on this in our spare time trying to replicate something we do not have the source code of into a entirely different game engine, inaccuracies are bound to happen and we can only try our best to improve it. If constructive feedback can be given then we can take further look at things that you guys do not like and at the very least come to a middle grounds in functionality.
26-02-2017 09:19 PM
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DDRKhat Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
(18-02-2017 08:57 AM)Joseph Collins Wrote:  our "conversation" was basically a rapid-fire Q&A session... and of the dozen or so things that Khat chose to ask me about from my document, about 0% of them seemed like they were going to be addressed.
I believe you can understand that everyone has a limited amount of time and the things that I brought up were the only ones that were ambiguous or unclear; the other points were at least taken into consideration even if they were then later disregarded or rejected, based on our internal discussions. If this means you feel no faith anything will be addressed there is nothing further I can do to convince you, in all honesty.

(18-02-2017 08:57 AM)Joseph Collins Wrote:  I mean, if you're going to go to the trouble of replicating something wholesale, you should at least try and do so as accurately as possible. Not only is the expectation there from the dedicated players (I can think of at least five people who said the engine "felt off"), but as Blyka put it: "[Accurate replication of a game engine] allows the player's practiced skill and knowledge from all the official Mega Man titles to carry over to whatever challenges your fan game presents." He also mentioned something about having faith in the engine which, thinking back, I do seem to remember just giving up and "accepting my fate" whenever the engine decided to punish me for trying to play the game like I would any other... but never mind.
Whilst I will not argue that a certain level of accuracy should be expected, I would like to clarify a few things here.
1) We are not "Replicating something wholesale", as we even mention in our trailer video (that it seems you may have ignored or just outright disregarded) our intent with Megaman 2.5D was A new take on a classic series.
2) Even the main series of Megaman games do not identically translate between games, Rush functions differently between games, slide speeds and charge times also vary between games. They adjust and adapt the design with each iteration, which is why I would argue Megaman 9 from Inti Creates shines the best, because they got to reap the benefit of seeing what did and did not responate highly with players.

(18-02-2017 08:57 AM)Joseph Collins Wrote:  Going back to the "Vs. Capcom" stuff... the funniest thing about this is that even after I showed Khat first-hand what, exactly, I had meant by some of those points... he always seemed to have a dismissive answer such a, "I didn't program that," or "I/we didn't know that." Another good one was "it's fine as it is." Then why bring it up in the first place? Just to reassure me it won't be looked in to? My favorite response though? "We can't accurately replicate the behavior of a game engine without having a de-compile/the source code of that game," citing that the only one in existence right now is for Mega Man.
1) You seem to be recollecting the conversation incorrectly as I never once said "I didn't program that", "fine as is" or "Didn't know that" (If you truly disagree with me stating this, I am willing to send you a message on these forums with a exact copy of our discussion).
2) You seem offended that I am stating a fact that we cannot exactly replicate things, we can program it based on observation similar to what you have described here, but there is no guarantee that it will function exactly the same way. Sure you may have an enemy act in an exact method each time which is identical to an enemy from a main series game, but that does not mean the enemy in question is not also further affecting the game in their existence (which would then not be replicated as you could not observe it).
I am not stating that our observations were exact and some alterations were made to the design to better fit the perspective of the game that we took, but it is an accurate statement that without the source code it is at best very difficult to replicate a 2D game exactly into a 3D engine.

(18-02-2017 08:57 AM)Joseph Collins Wrote:  I feel that the definition of "helpful feedback" seems a little questionable in its subjectivity... particularly since the definition of "acknowledgement" seems to learn more toward "yes, we noticed you said words" as opposed to "yes, we have read the report in full and intend to look into things for ourselves."
See my first quote reply in regards to this.

(18-02-2017 08:57 AM)Joseph Collins Wrote:  Now, to be fair... I'll admit that v1.0.1 fixed a couple of very trivial things that I mentioned (some sprite errors -- particularly concerning Octone's ink) as well as one of the more commonly-mentioned bugs (the slide bug), but considering how much has been left untouched and especially given the dismissive (and sometimes seemingly snarky) attitude of Khat toward feedback -- and not just mine, mind you... I don't see much hope for the project improving by v1.0.2, much less v1.1.0.
Kind of amusing for you to take a moral high-road calling me snarky, given your attitude throughout the discussion, but again refer to my first reply.

(18-02-2017 08:57 AM)Joseph Collins Wrote:  I think a quote from earlier in the thread can summarize how I feel about this project and Khat in particular:
(07-02-2017 07:40 PM)Flashman85 Wrote:  It's entirely possible that the developers deliberately ignored valid criticism […]
But I will say, I'd be happy to be proven wrong on that front.
For whatever reassurance it is worth, any criticism that we become aware of I can confirm that it is at the very least looked at and considered. Some of it disregard quickly, others deeper discussion occurs. I am aware this seems a very wishy-washy comment but I would like to point out that we have an upcoming change to how E-Tanks function in the game based on feedback we have received.


Lastly I would like to say thank you to everyone in this topic for their words, positive or negative, it is nice to see a community with such a passion towards the blue bomber, it is appreciated that you took the time to try the game and judge for yourselves rather than allowing others to make a decision for yourselves, and thank you for at least trying our game even if ultimately it was not to your tastes.
14-03-2017 08:07 AM
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Kallisto Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Mega Man 2.5D
That was the argument I made similarly, I never cared about a fan game being a exact copy, but just as long it was functional, and fun, I celebrate the differences more than the similarities.
14-03-2017 08:19 AM
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