"How to Give C+C"

[Blackbeltdude]

It's come to my attention that a lot of users don't really know how to "C+C" sprites. They post, but in all honesty, its content is about the same as if they didn't post. "Wow! Those rock!," "Awesome, you're a god!!!," "Cool sprites!," etc. While these are nice to hear, they're pretty useless for spriting, and really just boost egos. :P So, I'd like to post something in the Sprite rules explaining what C+C is, and how you "should" give it.

C+C means, "Constructive Criticism." Of course, some people might say it stands for something else, but it's usually all the same in terms of the meaning. Basically, when you C+C something, you want to do 2 things:

1) Point out the positives of the sprite. What you liked and why, what the spriter did well, etc.

2) Point out the negatives of the sprite. What you didn't like and why, how they could improve, etc.

Now will you get penalized for just pointing out negatives or positives? No, but you can usually find something for either positive or negative. There's no such thing as a perfect sprite. If you still can't think of anything they could improve on, just say WHY you like the sprite.

There's a difference between, pointing out what could be better, and flaming. If you're pointing out what could be better, you focus on the sprite and you say what could make it better, rather then just saying "this could be improved." Flaming would be like, "OMG, you fail at life!" Anytime you say something about the spriter that makes them seem incompetent, then it's flaming. Don't insult people when you C+C, it makes you look like an ass. In the same regard, while it isn't flaming, telling a user that something is "clichéd," "unoriginal," or even just saying "try again," doesn't at all say how to improve.

The bottom line is: When you C+C something, you're looking for what could be improved on, not what's bad.

While these aren't rules and won't really be enforced anyhow, it isn't a bad thing to keep in mind when you're posting something about a sprite.

[Aki-at]

Actually I vote this is stickied or something, and more points should be added on later, of course there could already be something like this.....

[ZeroX]

Good job BBD. Take my thread for a perfect example. >.>

[Pinkie Pie]

This is for people who rate sprites, please read the following:
OFFICAL ADMIN STATEMENT.

Quit giving high ratings to crap sprites. Seriously. Mostly because its seriously annoying me, theres now an Offical ratings guide to the topic:

Ratings should go from:
0/10 - Horrible to look at, little attempts at proportion, or basic recolour.
Example (http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=224&stc=1&d=1148254220)
Recolours Should Really Not Be Posted What-so-ever in these types of topics PEROID. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/kormos_kid/hargble.jpg) - This is for future reference. No outright straight recolours.

to

3/10 - Bad sprite in general. Badly chosen colours/pose/what-ever. Crap edits.
Example (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/secter/Jonathans%20folder/megamanpop-up.png)

to

5/10 - Basic Edit, and is average, or very sketchy sprite.
Example (http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=226&stc=1&d=1148257530)
Example (http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c23/JK-Man/KillaRockSprites.jpg)
Example (http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/5277/ximpossiblearmor2du.png)

to

7/10 - Very good edits or decent sprite.
Example (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/Aki-at/Akidude.png)

to

9/10 (or at a push, 10/10) - Impossible to tell apart from a professional sprite. Or for edits, near impossible to tell what the original base was, (and still looks professional) but this would usually mean you'd probably call it a almost scratch.
Example (http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/forum/image.php?u=5&dateline=1148081874)
Example (http://www.arkangelstudios.net/~shori/keegan.png)

It should be noted, Scratch Sprites (except if they're anything like THIS (http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=224&stc=1&d=1148254220)) take far more work than edits. Bare this in mind when posting.

Harsh? Yes. Nessercery? Definately. People, be more Critquie, people post these sprites in these topics for FEEDBACK, not bloated egos. If anyone's going to improve, tell them what needs changing, so no more posts like "ZOMGWTFAWESOME!!" if all they've posted is a basic Megaman edit.

ACE out.

[dualR]

Umm I'm not sure if I should be posting here, but I always thought C+C stood for Comments and/or Crits not Constructive+Criticism, it makes more sense for Constructive Criticism to be CC not C+C

[Blackbeltdude]

Umm I'm not sure if I should be posting here, but I always thought C+C stood for Comments and/or Crits not Constructive+Criticism, it makes more sense for Constructive Criticism to be CC not C+C

C+C means, "Constructive Critisizm." Of course, some people might say it stands for something else, but it's usally all the same in terms of the meaning.

:P

Really though, don't worry about it. Robert Oakes said the same thing once I showed him, but it's all the same.

[Smoke Frostheart]

You know, they should have a thread like this in BnG rather than the harsher version. :P Nice pointing out BBD.


Smoke~

[Hotenshu Shogun]

Example (http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=224&stc=1&d=1148254220) That is awesome.

[Zan Sidera]

C+C means, "Constructive Critisizm." Of course, some people might say it stands for something else, but it's usally all the same in terms of the meaning.

Making excuses for yourself? The original C+C meant Comments and Critisism. Nothing else, period. The demand for things to be constructive only came once too many N00Bs started making bullshit comments and too many oldbies started tearing things apart. Man, this brings back memories of forum wars and when edits were concidered brilliant.

Quit giving high ratings to crap sprites.

I've said this before, but it's technically impossible to rate sprites. It's a bad practice to begin with. Ratings are given dependant on the poster's own skill level and mood.

Exempli gratia: Those two images you listed as 9/10 would for me not go higher than a 7/10. I can list numerous flaws and means to fix them. Anybody still into recoloring would probably give a 10/10 to anything beyond their skill level. Finally, the little scratch critter given a 0/10 is actually quite good dependant on the medium, style and wether or not one can actually make it move. Rating sprites is too iffy a practice to be actually executed.

There's no such thing as a perfect sprite.

I beg to differ: http://www.henknieborg.nl/


PS: It's flaming with a singular M. You been playing too much BN3 or something? FlamMan!

[Mr. Dimond]

I thought the little guy who got 0/10 was really cool as well. There are no apparent flaws (given no style referense), and it seems to be in NES format.

[Blackbeltdude]

Making excuses for yourself? The original C+C meant Comments and Critisism. Nothing else, period. The demand for things to be constructive only came once too many N00Bs started making bullshit comments and too many oldbies started tearing things apart. Man, this brings back memories of forum wars and when edits were concidered brilliant.


Exactly, which is why I want it to be Constructive Criticism. :P

Anyhow, I've been meaning to bump this back up for a while now to talk about something:

Style and bittage clashing.

Now, there's some big differences between those two things. Bittage clashing would be something were you take something from a sprite with 12 or so colors and give it to a sprite with 16. (Or even more.) That should be avoided. (An even more dramatic example would be something with 4 colors paired up with something that has twice as much.)

You can get away with it though, as long as you convert the object by modifying the shading and colors. (Assuming the size is alright and proportional.) That way, you have the line art for a base, and can just modify the object to what you need.


Style clashing you can get away with more. In fact, Capcom does it all the time. Why, some of the effects from later MMBN series games are just scaled down versions of SF3 effects or are taken directly from other Megaman games. (The SF3 effects did have some color count modifications.) You can probably get away with barrowing parts from other games, as long as they share the same amount of colors. (Or to put it technically, the same bittage.)

I've seen examples of people taking a MMZ styled sprite, and putting a MMBN styled tail on the end. That's fine, because it doesn't look out of place. It doesn't HAVE to be changed, but it might look better if it was.

Frankly, you need to use a lot of your own judgment in what does and what doesn't look good together. Just try to remember that things can be recycled if used well enough, and not all styles are compatible with another, despite some similarities. I'm not asking you use what I say as an absolute rule, but try to keep in mind that it's only "clashing" if the concepts in a sprite clash with one another.


I've read Toxic Seahorse's rants on the ratings, and I agree to some extent. high ratings are given out like candy. but Zan said it best:

I've said this before, but it's technically impossible to rate sprites. It's a bad practice to begin with. Ratings are given dependant on the poster's own skill level and mood.


If you give a 10 to a sprite that I personally think lacks certain fundamental traits, then I don't see how it can be a 10. However, if you don't see any flaws in the same sprite, you have every right to give it a 10. That's why ratings are essentially useless anyhow: They don't tell what's good about the sprite and what's bad. Unless you type up a nice critique, it's pretty pointless to "rate" a sprite.

Same thing for "PWN ratings." Except those are worse. :P You don't have anything to compare those things to. (at least with sprite ratings, the rater compares the rating to their own skills.) So you have a PWN rating of 70... what exactly does that mean? If I say you should lower your rating to 10 because I don't like your work, then what?

Giving out ratings just don't really cut it when it comes to improving skills, but they do improve or bruise egos. :P Try not to be concerned with ratings because then you make start comparing your skills with other people and not with yourself. You should strive to out do yourself, not the guy that gave you a 5 or something.

But, this is just what I think. I'd like to see what other people think, so feel free to post whatever you've got on your mind relating to the topic. :P

[Rainbow Dash]

Zan makes a great point. I've never given a rating outside of the rating thread, and even in there I've stopped giving ratings. It's less efficient than just knowing what's good and bad about the sprite. For example, someone might give something a 7/10 and say nothing more. How does the spriter know what to change? What if (let's call the spriter "he") he changes something that was absolutely fine in the first place? Or what if he feels "you know, a 7/10 is pretty good. This is fine." Or what if he gets a 4/10, and discards a sprite that had pretty good potential? Without C+C attached to the rating, you might as well say "It's aweful," "it's bad," "it's ok," "it's good," or "it's great."

Don't get me wrong. Ratings aren't necessarily a bad thing. They can still help someone get an idea of the quality of their sprite, providing they're familiar with the rater, but it doesn't help without any C+C.

And the pwn rating... it's just stupid. It always was. (http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1473) It's given out randomly, when people feel like it, by whoever feels like it. There's no standard for it, and it means nothing. Sorry to be blunt, but having a Pwn Rating of 43.7 doesn't make me respect you as a spriter. If your just doing it for fun, well, whatever. I do stupid things for fun all of the time (I am a teenager, after all ;) ). Don't expect other people to care, though.

As for some my rants, you'd do best to ignore a lot of parts. Until recently, I've been quite bitter, and I've let it affect my behaviour. There are relevant opinions in there somewhere, though.

[TwIzTeR_91]

TS: All you really needed to quote was this. (http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=39950&postcount=20) ;)

And on the rating thing, I completely agree. I personally also think that the "Rating Thread" should be renamed with something having to do with C+C, rather than the implied 1-10.